On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:22:16 -0800, Hobo > wrote:

>
>If stealth makes long distance RF AAMs ineffective, and laser blinding
>makes IR AAMs ineffective, wouldn't we back to the gunfights of WW1?

If the aircraft are stealthy, how do they find each other for the
dogfight?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:22:16 -0800, Hobo > wrote:
>
> >
> >If stealth makes long distance RF AAMs ineffective, and laser blinding
> >makes IR AAMs ineffective, wouldn't we back to the gunfights of WW1?
>
> If the aircraft are stealthy, how do they find each other for the
> dogfight?

Barking?

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote...
>
>> If the aircraft are stealthy, how do they find each other for the
>> dogfight?
>
> Barking?

Sniffing?

"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
news:PeGNb.61517$Rc4.220201@attbi_s54...
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote...

> > Barking?
>
> Sniffing?

Dambed sailors.

Watch your gun, Ed.

"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
news:PeGNb.61517$Rc4.220201@attbi_s54...
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote...
> >
> >> If the aircraft are stealthy, how do they find each other for the
> >> dogfight?
> >
> > Barking?
>
> Sniffing?

Sniffing......hmmmmmmm!!!!!
Well.........It DOES kinda give a sort of new meaning to the phrase
"checking your six" :-))
Dudley

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 00:51:30 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

>
>"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
>news:PeGNb.61517$Rc4.220201@attbi_s54...
>> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote...
>> >
>> >> If the aircraft are stealthy, how do they find each other for the
>> >> dogfight?
>> >
>> > Barking?
>>
>> Sniffing?
>
>Sniffing......hmmmmmmm!!!!!
> Well.........It DOES kinda give a sort of new meaning to the phrase
>"checking your six" :-))
>Dudley
>

I thought we were going to resurrect the old canard of the Navy guy
coming in to the club complaining about those lying Air Force types.

"We agreed last night to meet at the center of the area at 25,000 feet
to resolve once and for all who was best. Those lying no-good AF types
came in at 35,000 feet. Why we all would have been morts if we hadn't
seen them from 40,000....."


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 00:51:30 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
> >news:PeGNb.61517$Rc4.220201@attbi_s54...
> >> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote...
> >> >
> >> >> If the aircraft are stealthy, how do they find each other for the
> >> >> dogfight?
> >> >
> >> > Barking?
> >>
> >> Sniffing?
> >
> >Sniffing......hmmmmmmm!!!!!
> > Well.........It DOES kinda give a sort of new meaning to the phrase
> >"checking your six" :-))
> >Dudley
> >
>
> I thought we were going to resurrect the old canard of the Navy guy
> coming in to the club complaining about those lying Air Force types.
>
> "We agreed last night to meet at the center of the area at 25,000 feet
> to resolve once and for all who was best. Those lying no-good AF types
> came in at 35,000 feet. Why we all would have been morts if we hadn't
> seen them from 40,000....."

I remember the first time I heard this story. Admiral Holloway told it as a
guest speaker at a TPS reunion and luncheon at Pax years ago. It broke the
joint up! I don't know the origin , but it was funny as hell then and it
STILL breaks the guys up!! :-))
Dudley

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "John R Weiss" > wrote in message
> news:PeGNb.61517$Rc4.220201@attbi_s54...
> > "Dudley Henriques" > wrote...
> > >
> > >> If the aircraft are stealthy, how do they find each other for the
> > >> dogfight?
> > >
> > > Barking?
> >
> > Sniffing?
>
> Sniffing......mmmmmmm!!!!!

Yep, first the barking, then the sniffing, then the testicle licking ...

And dogs aren't much better.

In article t>,
says...
>
> "Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:22:16 -0800, Hobo > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >If stealth makes long distance RF AAMs ineffective, and laser blinding
> > >makes IR AAMs ineffective, wouldn't we back to the gunfights of WW1?
> >
> > If the aircraft are stealthy, how do they find each other for the
> > dogfight?
>
> Barking?

That was a howler....


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

>From: "Dudley Henriques"
>Date: 1/15/2004 6:19 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: t>
>
>
>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:22:16 -0800, Hobo > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >If stealth makes long distance RF AAMs ineffective, and laser blinding
>> >makes IR AAMs ineffective, wouldn't we back to the gunfights of WW1?
>>
>> If the aircraft are stealthy, how do they find each other for the
>> dogfight?
>
>Barking?
>
>Dudley Henriques


Oak! Oak! Oak!!

Sorry, it's the only bark I know.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 1/15/2004 6:34 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
>news:PeGNb.61517$Rc4.220201@attbi_s54...
>> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote...
>
>> > Barking?
>>
>> Sniffing?
>
>Dambed sailors.
>
>Watch your gun, Ed.
>
Damned illiterate "engineers."

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message >...
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> >
> > "John R Weiss" > wrote in message
> > news:PeGNb.61517$Rc4.220201@attbi_s54...
> > > "Dudley Henriques" > wrote...
> > > >
> > > >> If the aircraft are stealthy, how do they find each other for the
> > > >> dogfight?
> > > >
> > > > Barking?
> > >
> > > Sniffing?


You guys ever heard of a plume-sensor? The EADS anti-stealth missile
has one of those type seekers under development. An aircraft nose
mounted type or pod could do the same thing. Technologically possible.
As for the old guns combat- IDTS. With UCAVs and KVs on the horizon
it's not likely.

Rob

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Dudley Henriques"
> >Date: 1/15/2004 6:19 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: t>
> >
> >
> >"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:22:16 -0800, Hobo > wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >If stealth makes long distance RF AAMs ineffective, and laser blinding
> >> >makes IR AAMs ineffective, wouldn't we back to the gunfights of WW1?
> >>
> >> If the aircraft are stealthy, how do they find each other for the
> >> dogfight?
> >
> >Barking?
> >
> >Dudley Henriques
>
>
> Oak! Oak! Oak!!
>
> Sorry, it's the only bark I know.
>
> Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Don't forget Dogwood!!!! :-))
DH

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "John R Weiss" > wrote in message
> news:PeGNb.61517$Rc4.220201@attbi_s54...
> > "Dudley Henriques" > wrote...
> > >
> > >> If the aircraft are stealthy, how do they find each other for the
> > >> dogfight?
> > >
> > > Barking?
> >
> > Sniffing?
>
> Sniffing......mmmmmmm!!!!!

Isn't this is what Tailhook was all about, dogfighters acting like dogs?

How shocking. :)

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:23:18 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
> wrote:

>Isn't this is what Tailhook was all about, dogfighters acting like dogs?
>
>How shocking. :)
>

Actually, Tailhook was about Patricia Schroeder of Colorado running
for re-election; about a lot of congress-critters who never served
finding a military scapegoat; about a a couple of women aviators who
sought special privileges; and about a national media feeding frenzy
of innuendo and accusations.

Many careers were ruined, a fine organization was besmirched, and in
the long run, the goal of advancing women in military aviation was set
back years.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

>From: Ed Rasimus

>Actually, Tailhook was about Patricia Schroeder of Colorado running
>for re-election; about a lot of congress-critters who never served
>finding a military scapegoat; about a a couple of women aviators who
>sought special privileges; and about a national media feeding frenzy
>of innuendo and accusations.
>
>Many careers were ruined, a fine organization was besmirched, and in
>the long run, the goal of advancing women in military aviation was set
>back years.
>
>
>Ed Rasimus
>

As I recall the media darling was a woman (Lt (jg)?) who keept repeating "I
am/was an admiral's aide" as if it made a difference. Any time CNN needed to
have a "victim" on they chose her.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Yew mean yew don't know how to find other airplanes? The F102, being a
male airplane (ever see the 'barrier probe'? Not what we called it!)
could find the other jets because of their heat . .
Walt BJ

"WaltBJ" > wrote in message
om...
> Yew mean yew don't know how to find other airplanes? The F102, being a
> male airplane (ever see the 'barrier probe'? Not what we called it!)
> could find the other jets because of their heat . .
> Walt BJ

I'm getting all excited with all this talk. I'm thinking of taking a Viagra;
but my wife says all that will do is keep me from rolling out of bed!!
D

"Dudley Henriques" > a écrit dans le message de
ink.net...
>
> "WaltBJ" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Yew mean yew don't know how to find other airplanes? The F102, being a
> > male airplane (ever see the 'barrier probe'? Not what we called it!)
> > could find the other jets because of their heat . .
> > Walt BJ
>
> I'm getting all excited with all this talk. I'm thinking of taking a
Viagra;
> but my wife says all that will do is keep me from rolling out of bed!!
> D
>

ROFL! It deserves to be #1 in a Letterman's Top Ten list about the
unforeseen uses of Viagra.

Regards,
Arva

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:58:28 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

>
>"WaltBJ" > wrote in message
om...
>> Yew mean yew don't know how to find other airplanes? The F102, being a
>> male airplane (ever see the 'barrier probe'? Not what we called it!)
>> could find the other jets because of their heat . .
>> Walt BJ
>
>I'm getting all excited with all this talk. I'm thinking of taking a Viagra;
>but my wife says all that will do is keep me from rolling out of bed!!

If by chance you did roll out of bed you could end up with a BENT
SPEAR incident..

"Buzzer" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:58:28 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >I'm getting all excited with all this talk. I'm thinking of taking a
Viagra;
> >but my wife says all that will do is keep me from rolling out of bed!!
>
> If by chance you did roll out of bed you could end up with a BENT
> SPEAR incident..

Whereas usually it's just a DULL SWORD.

Pete

Buzzer > wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:58:28 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"WaltBJ" > wrote in message
om...
>>> Yew mean yew don't know how to find other airplanes? The F102, being a
>>> male airplane (ever see the 'barrier probe'? Not what we called it!)
>>> could find the other jets because of their heat . .
>>> Walt BJ
>>
>>I'm getting all excited with all this talk. I'm thinking of taking a Viagra;
>>but my wife says all that will do is keep me from rolling out of bed!!
>
>If by chance you did roll out of bed you could end up with a BENT
>SPEAR incident..

Beats a BROKEN ARROW...
--

-Gord.

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:28:46 -0800, Hobo > wrote:

>In article >,
> Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>
>> If the aircraft are stealthy, how do they find each other for the
>> dogfight?
>
>You win, there were no dogfights before radar. All mention of such
>dogfights having occured are nothing but lies.

As the Baron so succinctly stated, "to rove the alloted area, seek out
the enemy and kill him. Anything else is rubbish."

The problem, of course, (and here I belabor the point) is that with a
stealthy aircraft, you are hard to find on radar, hard to see visually
and hard to detect IR. Additionally you are quiet and may be operating
at altitude and at night making it additionally hard to detect.

So, you've got two adversaries, starting out from airfields several
hundred miles apart, with no pre-coordinated rendezvous wandering for
an hour and a half at a time through thousands of cubic miles of
airspace, not even necessarily at the same time of day.

Should one blunder on to the other, at the speeds and maneuverability
involved, the detection may only be for a second or two and depending
upon the angular relationship may never be repeated.

Assume a slight (it doesn't have to be much) assymetry in the level of
stealth technology between the adversaries and the advantage shifts.
Then detection is possible and weapons can be employed.

While your comment about dogfights before radar is pithy, and
certainly correct, recognizing the sarcasm of "nothing but lies", it
doesn't apply because dogfights before radar were between non-stealthy
aircraft.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 01:23:47 GMT, Buzzer > wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:58:28 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"WaltBJ" > wrote in message
om...
>>> Yew mean yew don't know how to find other airplanes? The F102, being a
>>> male airplane (ever see the 'barrier probe'? Not what we called it!)
>>> could find the other jets because of their heat . .
>>> Walt BJ
>>
>>I'm getting all excited with all this talk. I'm thinking of taking a Viagra;
>>but my wife says all that will do is keep me from rolling out of bed!!
>
>If by chance you did roll out of bed you could end up with a BENT
>SPEAR incident..

Or, even worse, a "BROKEN ARROW" (ouch).

Al Minyard

Alan Minyard > wrote:
>>
>>If by chance you did roll out of bed you could end up with a BENT
>>SPEAR incident..
>
>Or, even worse, a "BROKEN ARROW" (ouch).
>
>Al Minyard

You beat me by 29 min. Al...

--

-Gord.